Title

RSS «» Advanced Stats Page - A Layman's Guide to Advanced NBA Statistics

"Indispensable."
Eric Neel ESPN.com

"The (NBA's) premier analytical blog."
Kevin Pelton SuperSonics.com

Payin The Bills

Latest Comments:
Hot Links
Knick Links
RSS & Info

My RSS Feed

Subscribe in NewsGator Online Creative Commons License

Archives

HOT or NOT?

Meta
This Doesn’t Deserve It’s Own Post

July 11th, 2008 by Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) | Comments | Permalink | Trackback |

This doesn’t deserve it’s own post, at least until some other news sources start to confirm this (and by confirm this I mean not just read the article and believe it to be true). Now I know my readers will talk about this on that article if I don’t, so might as well create a space to discuss the following:

According to SI.com, the Knicks rejected an offer from the Clippers to trade Zach Randolph solely for cap space.

The Knicks have rejected a proposal from the Clippers to trade power forward Zach Randolph, league sources told SI.com.

Terms of any proposal were not known, but the Clippers have enough salary-cap space to accept Randolph’s contract without having to give the Knicks equal salaries in return. The Clippers, seeking to replace the departed Elton Brand, were trying to take Randolph off the Knicks’ hands while offering little more than cap relief to New York, the sources said. Randolph will make $14.7 million next season, and he has three years and $48 million left on his contract.

It’s unknown what was offered, and the article says that Los Angeles is under the cap so the salaries don’t have to match. It’s also unknown how true this article is, since at the current time this is the only news organization reporting this.

But let’s assume that it is true for argument’s sake. You have to hope that Donnie Walsh knows what he’s doing here. Because getting rid of Randolph fits in perfectly with his plan of getting under the cap by 2010, and many Knick fans would love to see what David Lee could do as the full time starter. Maybe Walsh is playing chicken where he’s hoping the Clippers will throw in a draft pick. Maybe Walsh is playing poker and he has had similar offers from around the league and is surveying the field. Or maybe Walsh figures Randolph’s value will be higher near the trading deadline with a D’Antoni offense increase in offensive per-game stats. Maybe Walsh said “yes” but his cell phone cut out like in those commercials where the person on the other end thinks they offended the person they called.

On the other hand if you’re seeing the cup half empty at this point, you’re wondering if Walsh has lost his mind. Because those are the only plausible reasons for Walsh not saying “Hmmm lemme think about that for a - YES I’LL DO IT! Ahem - I mean yes, that’ll do.” Randolph is not needed on this team. He wasn’t needed last year when the Isiah acquired him for basically nothing. He doesn’t give the Knicks anything they need (shooting - check, rebounding - check, poor defense - check, man breasts - Curry still on this team? - then check).

The other day I was walking to work I saw a dollar bill ripped in half in a puddle floating in a puddle. I thought for a split second, and figured reaching into that muck for a dollar that I would have to dry then tape together wasn’t worth it. (And no dear readers, yours truly isn’t rich enough to walk past money. I will pick up a coin if I see it. At least one that isn’t in muck). I’m sure the person that picked up that Washington thought it was a fortunate event that they were able to have their choice from McDonalds $1 menu. Right now the Clippers are that person, and Zach Randolph is that dollar.

Recommend this article to others on Ballhype BallHype
or any of these sites: Digg Technorati del.icio.us Stumbleupon Reddit Furl Yahoo

Your Ad Here

106 Responses to “This Doesn’t Deserve It’s Own Post”

  1. Avatar TDM -

    One positive thing can come out of this event, assuming it to be true . . . the entire league is going to know immediately that the Isiah Thomas era of the Knicks is officially dead. The Walsh Knick era has begun - where wild spending in spite of the cap was the norm of the past, now logical, cap-friendly moves are being turned down.

    Reply to this comment.
  2. Avatar Vmart -

    If Walsh passed up a deal for Zach then he must have a very good reason. I can’t see any team trading a 20-10 player just for cap space. Even though Zach has little value to the Knicks he holds value to other teams in need of a power forward. Walsh must want something in return for Zach possibly, Jordan and Eric Gordon or some first and second round future picks.

    Reply to this comment.
  3. Avatar Ken "The Animal" Bannister -

    Sounds like internet gossip to me.

    Reply to this comment.
  4. Avatar jon abbey -

    I doubt that, SI still has some journalistic standards.

    Reply to this comment.
  5. Avatar jon abbey -

    “where wild spending in spite of the cap was the norm of the past, now logical, cap-friendly moves are being turned down.”

    what’s the difference? if Walsh had accepted the deal, you’d have a point here.

    Reply to this comment.
  6. Avatar danvt -

    “I’m sure the person that picked up that Washington thought it was a fortunate event that they were able to have their choice from McDonalds $1 menu. Right now the Clippers are that person, and Zach Randolph is that dollar.”

    Dude, That’s a great metaphor for any writer much less a sports writer.
    Nice post.

    “If Walsh passed up a deal for Zach then he must have a very good reason. I can’t see any team trading a 20-10 player just for cap space. Even though Zach has little value to the Knicks he holds value to other teams in need of a power forward. Walsh must want something in return for Zach possibly, Jordan and Eric Gordon or some first and second round future picks.”

    I’m with that. Maybe they feel they should get more. Would the credibility of the franchise suffer if teams around the league know we’re giving stuff away for free.

    Could D’Antoni and Walsh like Zach?

    Reply to this comment.
  7. Avatar TDM -

    “what’s the difference? if Walsh had accepted the deal, you’d have a point here.”

    To me, they are far opposite sides of the spectrum. Isiah would accept any lopsided deal no matter how it affected the cap situation, while Walsh is potentially turning down a boondoggle deal for the Knicks that would help the cap situation.

    Reply to this comment.
  8. Avatar Vmart -

    “I’m sure the person that picked up that Washington thought it was a fortunate event that they were able to have their choice from McDonalds $1 menu. Right now the Clippers are that person, and Zach Randolph is that dollar.”
    Dude, That’s a great metaphor for any writer much less a sports writer.Nice post.
    “If Walsh passed up a deal for Zach then he must have a very good reason. I can’t see any team trading a 20-10 player just for cap space. Even though Zach has little value to the Knicks he holds value to other teams in need of a power forward. Walsh must want something in return for Zach possibly, Jordan and Eric Gordon or some first and second round future picks.”
    I’m with that. Maybe they feel they should get more. Would the credibility of the franchise suffer if teams around the league know we’re giving stuff away for free.
    Could D’Antoni and Walsh like Zach?

    Knicks fan always tend to undervalue a good player and overvalue the not so good players. They put more value to david Lee than they do to Zach and Zach is so much better than Lee. To just give away Zach is moronic got to get a couple of picks out of Clippers.

    D’Antoni and Walsh, might not be the biggest fans of Randolp thats why they want to move him, not just for the first team to come along and offer cap space in return for a 20-10 player. Got to get something in return.

    Reply to this comment.
  9. Avatar Jose B -

    I wouldn’t let ZBo go for nothing when I could get something…I have to believe that this is the case because Walsh has made it clear that cap space is the #1 priority as far as the Knicks rebuilding process goes. Maybe he is trying to snag a 2009 or 2010 first rounder, which will surely be lottery picks. Let’s remember that is far as terrible NBA GMs go, Elgin Baylor is without a doubt in the discussion for worst overall. His lottery pick exploits include taking Olowokandi #!, Darius Miles #3, and spending mid-lottery picks on guys like Melvin Ely, Yaroslav Korolev. As a talent evaluator, let’s just say his judgment is somewhat impaired.

    Reply to this comment.
  10. Avatar Ken "The Animal" Bannister -

    I doubt that, SI still has some journalistic standards.

    I assume they’re as reliable as say, ESPN.com, where Messrs. Stein, Ford, et al. are allowed to print the chatter they hear. Remember Ford’s “D’Antoni doesn’t like Gallinari” line about a week or so before the draft?

    I think it’s just as likely that the “source” is Walsh (or one of his subordinates), trying to create the impression that there’s a market for Randolph. If you let a “reputable” institution like SI print/write that the Knicks TURNED DOWN the Clips offer, perhaps other GM’s will start thinking - “Hm, maybe the Knicks have better offers out there. Maybe we should look into Z-Bo”.

    Reply to this comment.
  11. Avatar Brendan -

    The dollar metaphor really is well-said.

    Assuming this rumor is true, which is a giant assumption, two things occur to me: first, that it’s relatively analogous to the Nets’ reported turning down of a VC to Cleveland for cap space deal, so this sort of non-move has a recent parallel. Both Zbo and VC are at very low ebb of their apparent market value, which I suspect was probably the motivating reason for standing pat on them. The chances of either seeing out his current contract with his current team are probably still small.

    Second though, is that this is potentially the equivalent of going all in on a pair of queens with an ace and a flush draw on the board- Walsh may be talking himself into being stuck with something that plays less well than it looks, and is about to cost him a lot of money. I hope he’s judging the Zbo market well, is all I’ll say.

    Reply to this comment.
  12. Avatar Ken "The Animal" Bannister -

    I personally of course would trade Z-Bo for a plate of warm guacamole - esp. considering the plate of guacamole would defend the post almost as well as Randolph

    Reply to this comment.
  13. Avatar Z -

    “This doesn’t deserve it’s own post, at least until some other news sources start to confirm this.”

    It must be on the AP wire too because I heard it reported not long ago on the radio (here in LA). It was the exact same report, though, so they may have just been reading the SI piece…

    Reply to this comment.
  14. Avatar Z -

    Walsh strikes me as a straight shooter. Not a Machiavellian schemer trying to trick teams out of 2nd round picks…

    Reply to this comment.
  15. Avatar Latke -

    The knicks didn’t really give anything up for randolph… Really the blazers received less than what the knicks would conceivably get. The blazers had to buy out Steve Francis’s huge contract. Yes, they picked up Channing Frye, but at that point no knicks fan was particularly upset about the loss of Frye. So the knicks took Randolph (who was a year younger and whose reputation since then has only gotten worse) and the blazers had to pay francis something near 20 million dollars. Even if we say Frye is worth $10 million of that 20 million (he’s not), the Blazer’s then paid 10 million dollars to get randolph off of their team. In this situation the knicks ditch randolph for free. I think it’s a no brainer.

    And honestly, I think Randolph could help the clippers. The problem in New York (as has been discussed to death) is that Curry and Randolph’s strengths and weaknesses overlap far too much. Kaman does not need the ball to be effective.

    Reply to this comment.
  16. Avatar brian quinnett's left nipple -

    i’m inclined to believe that the present regime is smart enough to know when and how to dump randolph if given the chance, which makes me think that there would be more to this story than what’s printed, if it’s even true.

    now if this were the past regime, then i’d believe every single word.

    Reply to this comment.
  17. Avatar foliveri -

    It would be nice if they made that deal.
    Maybe the Clips wanted the Knicks to pay at least some of his salary…
    Can that be done in the NBA as it is done in MLB?

    Reply to this comment.
  18. Avatar daaarn -

    i’m thinking this is just gossip. on the other hand, if it isn’t, then i have enough faith in walsh to believe that he has some ulterior motives and it’s not b/c he’s gone senile

    Reply to this comment.
  19. Avatar pete -

    If this is true, then Walsh is trying too hard. He needs to keep it simple. If the top priority is to clear salary, then clear salary. It could work to our advantage to up his trade value, but this trade of no damaging contracts is already above what we thought Z-Bo’s value was around the league. It could work, but it it really worth the gamble? Even if he averages 23 and 10, how much better could the offer possibly be in February?

    And if he isn’t averaging 23-10, or if he gets arrested at a strip club, or if he whines too much to D’Antoni, or if people are reminded that he is a pathetic defender and passer, or if his knee goes out again, or if his career is simply on a downward trajectory, then we are stuck with him for three more years and will have to take back Mark Blount or Marco Jaric to get rid of him.

    The risk, in this case, does is not proportionally outweighed by the reward. When that is the case, you are being foolish. This really seems like something Zeke would have done.

    Reply to this comment.
  20. Avatar jon abbey -

    I think Walsh may be underestimating the huge jolt of adrenaline and relief that dumping Randolph would give the Knicks’ fan base, among other things. if Z-Bo opens the season in NY, this is a mistake, and probably a major one.

    Reply to this comment.
  21. Avatar jon abbey -

    “This really seems like something Zeke would have done.”

    exactly.

    Reply to this comment.
  22. Avatar Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) -
    Author Comment

    Funny thing is - what if this is a rumor that Walsh put out there to get people to bite on Randolph? And here we come along going nuts that he didn’t jump on the deal to get nothing for Randolph. You think any team’s GM reading this blog (I know very highly unlikely) is going to say “Knick fans hate this guy enough to give him away for nothing - Oh well I was going to trade for him” and Randolph’s value drops (even moreso).

    Reply to this comment.
  23. Avatar Captain Merlin -

    Should the Prime Minister of Pudding, Z-bo, remain on the roster into the regular season, I’d have to assume that this was merely gossip. Walsh seems like he’d be smart enough to jump on this offer were it the best he knew he could get. That being said, I expect and desperately hope the market for him is as generous as that supposed offer.

    Reply to this comment.
  24. Avatar TDM -

    My fear is the old adage: your first offer is usually your best offer.

    Reply to this comment.
  25. Avatar Brendan -

    Alternate funky rumor:

    http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/53547/20080711/could_knicks_deal_for_szczerbiak/

    There’s a limited number of names who could potentially be the other half of this trade, of course….

    Reply to this comment.
  26. Avatar Z -

    “what if this is a rumor that Walsh put out there to get people to bite on Randolph?”

    You mean like starting a bidding war between the Clips and the Warriors for the services of Z-Bo? That is getting into David Falk territory. I don’t think that is how Walsh works…

    Reply to this comment.
  27. Avatar jon abbey -

    receiving nothing for Z-Bo would be decidedly preferrable to Wally S. IMO.

    Reply to this comment.
  28. Avatar foliveri -

    A straight up trade, Zach for Wally Szczerbiak would work by the numbers…

    Reply to this comment.
  29. Avatar Z -

    Maybe Walsh is angling for a bigger package. Like say Randolph and Crawford for Fugazi, Mobley, and Eric Gordon. If Clips consider themselves a win-now team, why wait for Gordon to develop into Jamal Crawford when they can have him now.

    Here’s to dreaming…

    Reply to this comment.
  30. Avatar TDM -

    If the Knicks are looking for an outside shooter for a small deal, Redick is most likely going to be waived by ORL. The guy could be a good role player off the bench for D’Antoni’s offense.

    Reply to this comment.
  31. Avatar TDM -

    Regarding a proposed deal with the Clippers, wasn’t Mike Dunleavy the coach of the Trailblazers when they drafted Z-bo?

    Reply to this comment.
  32. Avatar Mulligan -

    I wonder if this is just a taste of things to come. I mean, I’d be fine with this deal, but if it nets us anything in return (2010 draft pick? Even DeAndre Jordan), I’d be pumped. Also, looking at Zbo’s contract, it becomes clearer that this is the year to move him. 14.6 this year, then 16 and then 17 in the next 2 years. If we’re having trouble finding takers now, imagine how hellacious it’ll be next year.

    J-Rich was traded straight up for Brendan Wright, but his stock was high and Jordan’s decision making skills are questionable. I think we could get better than nothing, although nothing would be nice enough.

    Reply to this comment.
  33. Avatar bud -

    trading randolph for only cap space right now is not the right move. his value can only increase during the course of the season, possibly through great play on his part, but if not that, at least through the dollar value remaining on his contract decreasing over time. yes, cap space for the free agent gang bang of summer 2010 is desirable, but 1) the knicks have almost two years until that point, and 2) we don’t necessarily need the full amount of randolph’s deal off the cap to sign the free agents we want, and 3) there are other players on our team that can be moved during this time frame, not just zach randolph. trading randolph when his value is higher is the right move because it can not only get us a potential future draft pick, but possibly also a player in return with a lower salary who is young and could develop down the road. i know 97% of users on this site cream over guys like renaldo balkman and wilson chandler, so please excuse me for thinking those gentlemen aren’t the foundation for a title contending ballclub. assets generally have more value at the trade deadline than during the offseason, and i think this will hold true for randolph, who is still young and adept at playing his game, a game that can help teams in this league.

    yes we need to move this guy who is useless for are team, but not for nothing.

    ps randolph’s value could theoretically get lower - ie instead of mere cap space it could fall to the level of other bad contracts, but there is no reasonable indication whatsoever that his game will totally tank ala larry hughes, and he has not reached an advanced age of decrepitude like ben wallace or wally szczerbiak.

    knicks management is making the right call here.

    Reply to this comment.
  34. Avatar Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) -
    Author Comment

    Maybe Walsh is angling for a bigger package. Like say Randolph and Crawford for Fugazi, Mobley, and Eric Gordon. If Clips consider themselves a win-now team, why wait for Gordon to develop into Jamal Crawford when they can have him now.

    Here’s to dreaming…

    Walsh has always spoken highly of Crawford, so I wouldn’t bet on a Jamal trade. Of course maybe Walsh is smart enough to tout the guys he doesn’t like & wants to move.

    Reply to this comment.
  35. Avatar caleb -

    The rumor could be basically false — 2nd or 3rd hand information from a mid-level source who doesn’t really know.

    If it’s true — it could easily be the first step in a negotiation.

    The good news is — unless the writer made it up out of thin air, the rumor almost certainly started with the Knicks. Who would start a rumor about their team trying to do something and being shot down?

    Possible reasons (multiple reasons could be true)
    - they want to induce a better offer from the Clippers (even if it’s something like throwing in Nick Fazekas and another 2nd round pick, something of that ilk)
    - they want to drum up interest around the league. Get competing offers.
    - they want to be able to tell Randolph — hey, we don’t hate you — look, we’re turning down trade offers for you. (you don’t tell a guy he’s unwanted until he’s gone)

    In likelihood… whether or not the Clippers offer was actually made… someone from the Knicks office planted the story, with all 3 of those reasons in mind.

    Reply to this comment.
  36. Avatar Riise -

    http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/blog/

    Alan Hahn of Newsday claims he can “confirm” the story and that apparently Walsh was the one who declined. This is really bizarre to me. Maybe we’re just being shortsighted but the idea of Randolph for cap space + any kind of asset is an incredibly appetizing one. best trade since the acquisition of The Pearl.

    Reply to this comment.
  37. Avatar D -

    the team would look so much better on paper without Z-bos contract. Not only would it put the team in position to offer a max contract in 2010, it would put the team in an excelent position to jump into the free agent market in 2009 when kobe, marion, bibby, and boozer could be free agents…

    all they would have to do is trade crawford (who actually has trade value) and curry (ok, he is a little tougher to move)

    I think if they add one of those players next year then it would be much more likely that lebron or another top free agent would come in 2010.

    If the knicks did this deal they could be 2 trades (only one difficult) away from being under the cap enough to offer near max deals 2 years in a row.

    I would like to do a trade that gets us back first round draft picks- knicks should offer to take back tim thomas’s contract and a first rounder for zach

    Reply to this comment.
  38. Avatar Ess-dog -

    I like what Walsh is doing - driving up the price. There’s still plenty of time before the season starts. If he can make this trade, but also have Jordan or Fazekas included, I would go for it. If you can clear out that contract AND get someone to take minutes away from Curry, you are a master in my book. Is it killing anyone else to see these early reports of Westbrook? He looks like he’s already bulked up… I think he’s going to be a good pro…

    Reply to this comment.
  39. Avatar Thomas B. -

    I dont think the Clippers should chase Randolph, but as I said before, the Clips personnel decisions make no sense.

    Reply to this comment.
  40. Avatar Thomas B. -

    “I’m sure the person that picked up that Washington thought it was a fortunate event that they were able to have their choice from McDonalds $1 menu.”

    They still need another dime for tax before they can enjoy 4 nuggets, or a doublecheeseburger.

    Btw, I dont know about you people but a 99 cent burger scares me. You get what you pay for. Have you guys ever heard of Checkers? You can get two double cheeseburgers for something like 48 cents (tax included). The frugal part of me just wants to buy it. The sensible part of me (very small part of me btw) wants to run out the door.

    “That can’t possibly be beef” The sensible part screams.

    So I ask the cashier, “Is this 100% beef?”

    The cashier says “Of course.”

    “See, sensible side. 100% beef. What is there to worry about?” I say.

    But the sensible side of me isnt done yet.

    “Technically, any meat from a cow can be called beef.” Says sensible. “For all you know, that patty is processed bull testicle on a bun.”

    “……” I’m speechless.

    “Or it could be even worse than that.” Says sensible.

    “Okay sensible side, you win. I’ll just pony up 4 bucks for the grilled chicken. Chickens dont have testicles do they?” I say.

    “I think they do, but I’m pretty sure they are dark meat, and this is an all white meat chicken patty. Enjoy.” Sensible says.

    What does this have to do with Zach to the Clippers? Okay, let me put this bong down and explain. In sales you usually need to find a balance between price and quality of the product. If drop the price too low, people will think something is wrong with the product. “Why is it so cheap?” they ask. They assume something is wrong with the product and decided to shop elsewhere. If word got around that Walsh considered putting Zach on the dollar menu, GM would never offer anything more than a dollar. By rejecting a dollar menu offer from the Clips, Walsh is saying that my product is of better quality than you may think. I am not interested in selling for such a low price. Other GM’s hear that and say, “Hey, maybe Randolph is a valuable piece. Maybe if I offer 2 dollars, I could get him.” Another Gm offers three dollars. Before you know it, Randolph is that Grilled chicken sandwich.

    Reply to this comment.
  41. Avatar cavjam -

    First, I can’t believe how many here are eager to give up on the coming season. Second, making plans dependent on an innately nebulous scenario fraught with myriad variables is foolish in the extreme; freeing cap space for a supposed free agent bonanza two years hence is beyond that. I don’t know any decent player who doesn’t always seriously think his team will win it all. Is it so unrealistic to expect fans to feel the same? This is the only attitude which allows winning.

    As for the Randolph dump - the guy works hard to get his stats but that seems the extent of his vision. It’s best for the team to be rid of such a player. Unenlightened self-centeredness is toxic to team play. The Knicks, however, are in a position of strength vis a vis the Clips. The Clips need Randolph; the Knicks, though better off w/o him, don’t need to get rid of him. I’d have been surprised if Walsh had done anything but turn down the first offer.

    I must admit, though, if he stays it’ll be interesting to see which collapses first in the D’Antoni system - Randolph’s desire to get downcourt on offense or Randolph himself.

    Reply to this comment.
  42. Avatar Peter -

    “Before you know it, Randolph is that Grilled chicken sandwich.”

    LOL great post, Thomas B. I nominate you for a Nobel prize in economics.

    Reply to this comment.
  43. Avatar Riise -

    “First, I can’t believe how many here are eager to give up on the coming season. Second, making plans dependent on an innately nebulous scenario fraught with myriad variables is foolish in the extreme; freeing cap space for a supposed free agent bonanza two years hence is beyond that. I don’t know any decent player who doesn’t always seriously think his team will win it all. Is it so unrealistic to expect fans to feel the same? This is the only attitude which allows winning.”

    Cavjam, that’s the exact attitude that got us in the hole we’re in now. We can win now! Just add one more quality player! You need to build in this league, and the only reason I, and other people, have accepted losing next year is because it will allow us to ACTUALLY be a title contender in three, instead of just hoping and dreaming for it and ending up with 34 wins. I can’t believe how insanely shortsighted you are. Name one team that didn’t build before it won. Heat and Celtics had huge trades help them, but could only make those trade because of all the assets they had stockpiled in their rebuilding years. Spurs had Duncan fall into their laps, but prolonged their run by building young talent (Parker, Ginobili, etc.).

    At the moment, the Knicks have few, if any, championship-level assets. Players don’t become superstars over night, and so the only way we can ever expect to win a title is to build for a few years, stockpile assets and then go from there. Whether or not we get LeBron/Wade/Bosh, clearing cap space and getting young, inexpensive players in the plan for now, and the only plan that will lead to a Knicks title.

    Reply to this comment.
  44. Avatar Dave -

    I’m joining the pile of confused spectators. I don’t understand this.

    Just to think on it for a second. The worst possible deal LA can offer is Cuttino and Timmy T right? I don’t think they’d have the brass to demand picks or sweetners on top of that. They’d be laughed out of the building. So let’s assume the worst offer is those two for Zach. Why in the world do you not make that?

    Is Zach the big man that’s going to be kept? Because he can’t play alongside Eddy and he didn’t play all that well alongside Lee. Whatever about next season, Zach certainly can’t start alongside Lee on a contending team right?

    Do you think you’re going to get a better offer? Okay let’s think about that.

    Maybe Donnie wants some draft picks. Well the Clippers lost the exact same number of games as the Knicks last year. It’s not like we’re Memphis trading with a Lakers team that’s a lock for one of the five best records in the league for the next 5 years. It’s a poor team trying to jiggle stuff around. They aren’t giving up first round picks. They have no certainty of where they’re going to be. Zach isn’t good enough for that risk.

    Maybe it’s young talent?

    Eric Gordon and Al Thornton are a huge part of their future. They’re both good prospects with big potential as scorers in this league. Clippers aren’t giving up either one of them for Zach Randolph.

    Maybe lesser young talent?

    DeAndre Jordan. I’m all for that. Include him in the trade. I’m sure the Clippers won’t like it but I find it hard to believe the Clippers would hold up getting Zach Randolph for Cuttino/Thomas over their 2nd round pick who is a high risk player. That can’t be happening. Ditto for Mike Taylor. The Clippers would accept Donnie’s demands and make the deal. Unless there’s some freakish admiration of Jordan which there’s been no signs of from the Clippers so no that’s not happening.

    So what can they give that Donnie wants? There’s nothing else. The Clippers are bone dry.

    Donnie can’t think they’d give up their cap space straight for Zach can he?

    That removes the virtue of acquiring Zach from the Clippers perspective. Adding Zach to that team without anyone else just puts them in that 35-43 win bracket with no hopes of winning a playoff series in the West. No hopes for major roster improvements either.

    Where’s Donnie going to create this cap space for 2010?
    Where can he get a better offer for Zach Randolph?
    What does a better offer even look like?
    Does he think Zach and Eddy can play together?

    I’m confused.

    What’s Donnie thinking?

    Reply to this comment.
  45. Avatar The Sport Count -

    The Clippers were cheeky. But we like the effort.

    Reply to this comment.
  46. Avatar jon abbey -

    “So what can they give that Donnie wants? There’s nothing else. ”

    it could be a protected first round pick, or LA might just not be willing to give up anything in return for Randolph. I would have probably jumped at this if I were Walsh, but maybe he figures LA doesn’t have any better options and will decide to give up something of value as the summer progresses. that’s a very dangerous game to play, though, IMO.

    Reply to this comment.
  47. Avatar Anthony -

    Two points- The Clips had that record with last years team, without Elton Brand all year. So they would be removing Magette, but adding Baron Davis and Zach Randolph. Much better squad. Maybe not a playoff squad, but much better.

    Second, Kevin Prichard has done an amazing job with that roster, and he gave away Zach Randolp for much less than cap space– he ate a huge contract, and a cancer, just to get this guy off the team. If these reports are true, you have to be excited that he either has higher value out there for Randolph, or knows his value will be higher in February.

    Reply to this comment.
  48. Avatar jon abbey -

    “If these reports are true, you have to be excited that he either has higher value out there for Randolph, or knows his value will be higher in February.”

    or is making a huge mistake.

    Reply to this comment.
  49. Avatar Z -

    I was hoping to wake up and find that SI report was just a bad dream…

    “maybe he figures LA doesn’t have any better options and will decide to give up something of value as the summer progresses. that’s a very dangerous game to play, though”

    Very dangerous. Why let the Clips turn their attention to Marion? Dunleavy wants to run without Brand. Miami could get a big trade exception, maybe a pick or two. Marion is better. Clip fans would be happier with Marion than Randolph. Don’t play with fire. Take the salary dump, buy out Marbury, and pretend last season never even happened…

    Reply to this comment.
  50. Avatar T-Mart -

    “I’m sure the person that picked up that Washington thought it was a fortunate event that they were able to have their choice from McDonalds $1 menu.”
    They still need another dime for tax before they can enjoy 4 nuggets, or a doublecheeseburger.
    Btw, I dont know about you people but a 99 cent burger scares me. You get what you pay for. Have you guys ever heard of Checkers? You can get two double cheeseburgers for something like 48 cents (tax included). The frugal part of me just wants to buy it. The sensible part of me (very small part of me btw) wants to run out the door.
    “That can’t possibly be beef” The sensible part screams.
    So I ask the cashier, “Is this 100% beef?”
    The cashier says “Of course.”
    “See, sensible side. 100% beef. What is there to worry about?” I say.
    But the sensible side of me isnt done yet.
    “Technically, any meat from a cow can be called beef.” Says sensible. “For all you know, that patty is processed bull testicle on a bun.”
    “……” I’m speechless.
    “Or it could be even worse than that.” Says sensible.
    “Okay sensible side, you win. I’ll just pony up 4 bucks for the grilled chicken. Chickens dont have testicles do they?” I say.
    “I think they do, but I’m pretty sure they are dark meat, and this is an all white meat chicken patty. Enjoy.” Sensible says.
    What does this have to do with Zach to the Clippers? Okay, let me put this bong down and explain. In sales you usually need to find a balance between price and quality of the product. If drop the price too low, people will think something is wrong with the product. “Why is it so cheap?” they ask. They assume something is wrong with the product and decided to shop elsewhere. If word got around that Walsh considered putting Zach on the dollar menu, GM would never offer anything more than a dollar. By rejecting a dollar menu offer from the Clips, Walsh is saying that my product is of better quality than you may think. I am not interested in selling for such a low price. Other GM’s hear that and say, “Hey, maybe Randolph is a valuable piece. Maybe if I offer 2 dollars, I could get him.” Another Gm offers three dollars. Before you know it, Randolph is that Grilled chicken sandwich.

    Thomas B, I like your idea here, but doesn’t it rely a little too heavily on an assumption that NBA GM’s are working on a herd mentality with Dereck Zoolanderish inteligence. The McDonalds Cheeseburger is made out of mystery meat, just like all fastfood meat. I agree that it is possible to psych yourself out with the frugal v. sensible side waiting on line, I have done this at Taco Bell many times. The problem however, is that Zach Randloph is decidely NOT mystery meat, and everyone knows it, including NBA GMs. I don’t see any GMs getting fooled by this double-cheeseburger model of used car sale, Zach Randloph is a loser, the writing is on the wall in Font size 2383928992323. Perhaps I am giving NBA GMs too much credit, I hope I am.

    Reply to this comment.
  51. Avatar cavjam -

    [T]hat’s the exact attitude that got us in the hole we’re in now. We can win now! Just add one more quality player!

    Nonsense. And nonsense revealed by the rest of your post. It was injudiciousness that got the Knicks in the cesspool. (Who the hell pays Jerome James more than minimum wage?) It was “We can win now” that got the Celts where they are; that and an uncommonly accommodating ex-Celt.

    At the moment, the Knicks have few, if any, championship-level assets.

    Ever see a team outperform the sum of its assets? Ever see a young player blossom in a season, or any player do the same under a different coach’s sway and system? Who’da thunk Carlisle could in one year literally turn around the record of a 32-50 Piston team, one without a single “championship-level asset” (whatever that means)?

    I expect Balkman and Jeffries to improve their scoring (ludicrous idea, I know) in a run and lay-up offense; I imagine Craw and N8 will do better as well, but no one’s gonna make them smarter. Curry doesn’t fit, but preseason musical chairs ain’t over (I wonder if Morway’s dumb enough to swap Hibbert for Curry). Randolph appears to be as good as gone. Lee will continue to get tip-ins (he really does play better w/o Randolph). Can he develop an accurate three-foot finger roll/baby hook? I don’t know, but it’d really help his game. Duhon should be fine if unspectacular. Chandler seems solid, can probably play in any system. Even Collins I haven’t given up on (man, is that pie-eyed). Also, if by miracle the Knicks shed Craw, N8 and the two big blobs, they’d be a pretty good defensive squad if they learn to play together and trust each other.

    I know it’s a deep hole Isiah dug, but with perseverance sunlight may yet be glimpsed again, and soon; and giving up on the ‘08 Knicks will not help any of the younger players. For a GM, coach, player, or a fan, it’s also just plain wrong.

    Reply to this comment.
  52. Avatar Dave -

    Let’s say the Clippers with Baron and they acquire Zach Randolph. True, that is a better team than last year. Let’s say they win 16 more games than last season. That’s still under .500 and that’s definitely a lottery team in the West. Also worth pointing out they’ve renounced about 6 of their players and have zero depth after the Zach Randolph trade.

    Clippers face a lot of uncertainty going forward. Zach Randolph only makes sense if they can acquire another top level player with their cap space which isn’t again is not a certainty. Even if they get that player they’re still not a lock for the playoffs. Again a lack of certainty. Even if everything does work out … and the Clippers do make the playoffs there’s a good chance they’ll be a low seed out West, lose in the first round, and that their first rounder will be in the 18-22 range which has considerable value and is worth holding onto …. and that they’ll have zero cap space to develop their team further and their only assets to help them do that will be their draft picks.

    Zach’s a good player who can help a team in the right situation. He isn’t a franchise changing player. His lack of defense and self-involved offensive game denies him from being that.

    Reply to this comment.
  53. Avatar Mark N. -

    “So what can they give that Donnie wants? There’s nothing else. ”
    it could be a protected first round pick, or LA might just not be willing to give up anything in return for Randolph. I would have probably jumped at this if I were Walsh, but maybe he figures LA doesn’t have any better options and will decide to give up something of value as the summer progresses. that’s a very dangerous game to play, though, IMO.

    Walsh probably figures the Clippers were giving a low ball offer, and he’s probably right about that. Getting a draft pick in return would be nice. The Clipper’s pick could be worth a lot. I also think he may have in mind that Curry ended the season with an injury and hasn’t played since. Maybe he also wants to be sure Curry is the same old Curry this year before giving Zach away for almost nothing.

    Reply to this comment.
  54. Avatar Brendan -
  55. Avatar Z -

    Gordon scored 23 pts on 5-18 shooting last night in Vegas. Looks like he may be on the fast track to Crawfordom.

    Reply to this comment.
  56. Avatar Riise -

    Cavjam,

    “It was “We can win now” that got the Celts where they are; that and an uncommonly accommodating ex-Celt.”

    No, it was having talented young players like Al Jefferson (better asset than anyone we have) and others so that they could pull off the trade for KG (and yes, with a little help from Isiah). We don’t have anyone that good.

    “Ever see a team outperform the sum of its assets?”

    Er, not really winning a title. I’m sure you’ve heard this many times, but superstars win championships, with very rare exceptions (Pistons, Sonics, Warriors). Think of the last 20-25 years…KG, Duncan, Shaq, Wade, Kobe, Jordan, Hakeem, Magic, Kareem, Bird, Dr. J. These guys win 95% of the rings. And even when a team without a true superstar wins, their players are WAY better than ours. Take the ‘04 Pistons. Billups, Prince, Wallaces, and Rip. I’d say the only players on our roster who have even an outside chance to be that good are Lee (very outside shot, as much as I love him), Gallinari, and MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE Nate and Jamal. I’m sorry, but the rest simply will never be that good. And the chances of those four getting that good are slim.

    You don’t become good through sheer willpower, Cavjam. You get good by getting top players, complementary players, and putting them in a good system. We have some guys who can be complementary players on championship teams, but no one who can lead a championship team. So, we rebuild. Get one of those players through three possbilities: high draft pick, free agency, or trading stockpiled assets. That’s the only way we’re going to win a championship, and I’ll take that plan over your “Let’s hope Jared Jeffries becomes an offensive force through sheer force of will!”, Green Lantern-esque plan for the New York Knicks.

    Reply to this comment.
  57. Avatar Riise -

    *with a little help from McHale.

    …Christ, I still can’t Isiah out of my head!

    Reply to this comment.
  58. Avatar TDM -

    Eric Gordon? Not very likely that will happen. The funny thing is imagine the bait-and-switch that would be for Baron. BD thought he’d be playing with all-star Elton Brand and promising rookie Gordon, only to find out that they are gone, but Z-bo is there. He’d have to be waiting for Rod Serling to come walking out of the shadows . . .

    Reply to this comment.
  59. Avatar Maverick -

    To me the question is not why this has happened the way it was reported, but rather why was this even leaked? and who leaked it?
    we have 2 options, let’s analyze them, shall we?
    - Knicks leaked the story: What do they gain?
    1 - Walsh wants other GM’s to know that there is no fire sale in MSG and you better come up with good trade ideas.
    2 - Walsh is looking to put pressure on the Clippers to raise their offer.
    3 - Walsh may have another offer and is letting them know that they better jump in soon.
    These are the ones that make sense to me. Granted, I may have missed other reasons, but all the ones listed are positive for the knicks. What I get from it is there is a market for Zbo, he is just trying to get a better deal.
    - Clippers leaked the story, What do they gain?
    1 - They know Zbo is not popular with the Knicks fans and they are trying to put pressure on Walsh to cave, and they are counting on gullible knick fans to provide that pressure.
    2 - If Walsh was playing them against another team, they are making their position public to stop the bidding.
    3 - They are trying to gage their own fans reaction, adding Zbo is going for it, not rebuilding.
    Again, I may have missed otheres, but these are the ones obvious to me.
    This proves that there is a market for Zbo and they are trying to get him on the cheap.
    Some Knick fans are hollering for exactly that, “let’s help the other team, screw our own. We have the worst players and worst organization.”
    I am not sure what Zbo is worth but one thing is for sure, this is the worst time to trade him.
    For some reason, these same fans were all for overpaying for other teams assets but other teams are ok to underpay for our own.
    Be honest, how many of you thought the curry trade was a good, or the Zbo trade was a great trade last year?
    We are all blaming Isiah, but we have to share some of the blame.
    My 2 cents.

    Reply to this comment.
  60. Avatar Captain Merlin -

    At the time, I thought the Curry trade was horrible, to be perfectly honest–an opinion that has easily withstood the test of time

    As for the Zbo trade, I was actually somewhat excited when I first heard about it during that draft. Considering what we gave up–An aging overpriced rancid point and an at times promising, though inconsistent youngin in Frye–acquiring an overpaid pudding slurper who had yet to exhaust all hope did not seem too horrible…At the time.

    Reply to this comment.
  61. Avatar jon abbey -

    “I am not sure what Zbo is worth but one thing is for sure, this is the worst time to trade him.”

    how can you possibly know this? what if he takes a swing at D’Antoni during training camp? we’ll be stuck with his contract for the duration. obviously his value is very low right now, but that doesn’t mean it can’t stay there, or get any lower.

    Reply to this comment.
  62. Avatar bud -

    there’s a very low chance randolph’s value will dip lower. he’d have to play like larry hughes, or as “jon abbey” says make some sort of emotional scene ala artest or whomever. he did have that one tussle with darius miles in the past, but i don’t think that’s enough to expect another incident. his value will only rise, if only because the team trading for him will owe him less.

    looks like he could be a clipper soon, though. hope walsh is holding out for a good deal…

    Reply to this comment.
  63. Avatar Thomas B. -

    “Thomas B, I like your idea here, but doesn’t it rely a little too heavily on an assumption that NBA GM’s are working on a herd mentality with Dereck Zoolanderish inteligence. The McDonalds Cheeseburger is made out of mystery meat, just like all fastfood meat. I agree that it is possible to psych yourself out with the frugal v. sensible side waiting on line, I have done this at Taco Bell many times. The problem however, is that Zach Randloph is decidely NOT mystery meat, and everyone knows it, including NBA GMs. I don’t see any GMs getting fooled by this double-cheeseburger model of used car sale, Zach Randloph is a loser, the writing is on the wall in Font size 2383928992323. Perhaps I am giving NBA GMs too much credit, I hope I am.”

    Ha! Great response T-Mart. Zoolander. A completly under the radar comedy.

    “herd mentality” Yeah, that is a flaw in my logic. I dont think NBA GM’s are a Borg-like hive mind, but they do know what the other is going to do in most cases. But we dont need all the GM’s in heard mentality, just 3 or 4, which is the number of teams that would be interested in Zach. Clips, Denver, Milwaukee, and maybe one other team on the cusp would want Zach anyway. Maybe a three way deal with Denver and the Clips involving Nene going to the Clips, Zach to Denver and a combination of two year deals or picks coming to NY. Nene give LAC interior D, Zach gives Denver low post scoring and Ny gets some cap room.

    Anyway, I trust that Walsh has played this game often enough to do the right thing. My only concern is that I want Randolph gone so much that I would accept anything that is less than 3 years in salary. I mean all we gave up to get Zach was Frye and Franchise. Frye has not looked good since he had that knee injury at the end of his rookie year. So essentially we are trading a young player stuck in first and a former rookie of the year who is on four centerblocks.
    When you think of it that way, Thomas and Mobley arent bad.

    I hope jon abbey isnt right again. I hope Walsh hasnt made a mistake.

    Hey, do we even know for sure what the entire deal was? Maybe the Clips wanted another player the Knicks would not send.

    Reply to this comment.
  64. Avatar TDM -

    “he did have that one tussle with darius miles in the past”

    Actually, I think it was Ruben Patterson, who is known to be a d*ck. Of course, he may has smacked Miles around as well.

    Reply to this comment.
  65. Avatar jon abbey -

    “there’s a very low chance randolph’s value will dip lower. he’d have to play like larry hughes, or as “jon abbey” says make some sort of emotional scene ala artest or whomever. he did have that one tussle with darius miles in the past, but i don’t think that’s enough to expect another incident. his value will only rise, if only because the team trading for him will owe him less.”

    again, I don’t think it’s so clear. right now, Randolph’s got a bit of that “everyone sucked under Isiah” thing going for him, but if he also sucks under D’Antoni (or if D’Antoni won’t play him much), his value will drop. any kind of injury, his value will drop.

    Walsh obviously knows the specifics of the market a lot better than any of us, but it’s a very dangerous game he seems to be playing.

    Reply to this comment.