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Coach of the Year Needs a Do Over

April 19th, 2008 by David Crockett | Comments | Permalink | Trackback |

Coach of the Year is my least favorite NBA award. I tend not to get terribly upset by MVP balloting, as most of the time the choice is among numerous deserving candidates. Although I am firmly in the camp that believes MVP awards by definition should go to the “Most Outstanding Player”, I cannot begrudge sports fans their impulse to “award” it to the individual they deem most important to a team’s accomplishments. In fact, the back-and-forth about ‘what is value?’ and ‘who is more important to his team?’ is actually what makes the MVP race interesting.

By sharp contrast, Coach of the Year is about as interesting as an hour-long lecture on channels of distribution. This is unfortunate because the hard core NBA fan appreciates coaching (and if you’ve read this far in a blog entry that has “Coach of the Year” in the title you’re hard core). They even talk about coaching, just not in conjunction with the COY award. As Martin Johnson points out in today’s NY Sun, the range of likely winners is so narrow and so similar it’s hardly worth any discussing. The formula is easy enough to write out. COY = most dramatic one-season improvement, particularly if the team makes the playoffs. Although the winner is not easy to predict, the non-winners are. Coaches that win consistently virtually never win the award.

This should sound familiar. In season 1 Team A suffers key injuries and loses 10+ wins off the previous season’s total. In season 2 the team gets healthy, adds a lottery pick, and then sees a 10-12 game improvement to 50 wins. Voila! You have a strong COY candidate. Over the same two seasons Team B’s performance holds fairly steady through injuries and growing pains, improving from 45 to 48 wins. Now I don’t know which coach is better, but I do know that Team B’s coach is practically a lock to NOT get strong consideration for COY. So in effect, the process is biased against consistent high performance and in favor of factors that have little to do with coaching. The story is always the same, which seems silly to me. It ensures that no one will care about the award because the best coaches are often not even part of the conversation. It’s one thing for the good-but-never-great player to be shut out of an MVP race. Outstanding play really ought to be measured in short time intervals, but outstanding coaching can really only be seen over time because so many things that impact team performance are outside the coach’s control.

If I were in charge of NBA awards I would move COY from an annual award to a three-year award. (The trophy is already named for Red Auerbach, so the league wouldn’t need to do much other than award it tri-annually instead of annually.) One season simply is not enough time to say much about a coach’s performance. The effects of coaching are generally thought to be quite small and subject to lots of random noise (e.g., injuries, scheduling, strength of competition, etc.). One way of filtering out at least some of the noise is to look at a larger window of time.

Of course three years is an arbitrary window. (Why not five years? Or ten?) But three years is probably close to the typical coaching tenure, and is similar to the window in which coaches are hired and evaluated. I would also make the criteria for winning the Red Auerbach award explicit but open to interpretation. That’s what makes the MVP races so interesting. Different notions of what constitutes value produces candidates who bring different features to the table. Consider how Steve Nash completely changed the MVP profile.

Coaches under consideration for the award should be able to demonstrate:

1. An overall winning record as coach within the three season window; playoff performance may be considered but is not necessary to be eligible. (To the extent possible I want to avoid awarding simple regression to the mean. I want to see some consistency.)

2. Player development;apart from simply winning games players should generally improve under a coach.

3. Other considerations consistent with quality coaching; may include but are not limited to strategic or technical innovations, service to the league (e.g., on rules committees), and acting as an ambassador for the game of basketball.

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99 Responses to “Coach of the Year Needs a Do Over”

  1. Avatar Z-man -

    I’m a bit queasy about the thought of Mark Jackson coaching the knicks with absolutely zero experience. Always thought of him as a self-promoter and a hot dog who played out of shape half the time, which is why the Knicks let him go so early in his career. Besides, I couldn’t take the thought of his wife singing the national anthem again (any old-timers remember that?)

    Maybe Derek Harper would be interested…

    Reply to this comment.
  2. Avatar PeteRoc -

    I disagree with including number 2. If this were high school or college ball, then yes. But at the pro level, $million contracts (egos) and having to “take care” of the family/friends diminishes the influence of the coach in player development. NBA Player development is a function of (1) how bad the player wants to improve, and (2) the work ethic of your best players, which is what ultimately trickles down to the rest of the team.

    I don’t see why there’s a COY and executive of the year award. They should consolidate both into a “most improved team” award and use a multi-year window as suggested. Doing it this way allows you to evaluate and give credit to the three key, distinct pieces of the puzzle: the front office has to get the right players and coach, the coach has to find the best use of the players, and the players ultimately have to perform on the court.

    Why should Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich, Doc Rivers, Mike D’Antoni, etc. receive COY when they not only have the best players in the league, but arguably some of the best players of all time.

    Reply to this comment.
  3. Avatar Z -

    “I’m a bit queasy about the thought of Mark Jackson coaching the knicks with absolutely zero experience.”

    I think it’s a perfect scenario for on-the-job training. The Knicks have low expectations next year. It will be a year of healing. Mark Jackson will have a year to make mistakes without the typical NY pressure attached. Then, by the time the team is legitimately competitive, he’ll be seasoned.

    If he proves to be hopelessly sucky, it’s not like it will set the franchise back much. I’m sure Phil Jackson [no relation] will happily leave LA in 2010 to coach the LeBron led Knicks (he has a thing about only wanting to coach the best players in the universe and borrow some of their glory…)

    Reply to this comment.
  4. Avatar Funky -

    I’m just hoping Mark Jackson is a hard worker. It’s one thing to be a bad coach, but to have 15 minute practices, not go over tape, and not run plays as Isiah did is inexcusable. Let’s see someone who actually tries. Someone who will stand up and yell at players during the game instead of staying seated and chilling out all the time.

    Reply to this comment.
  5. Avatar mase -

    not sure about coach MJ, loved the helicopter but he has no experience!

    scott skiles could whip these guys into shape, the fact curry and Crawful dont like him makes me like him more.

    Reply to this comment.
  6. Avatar Ben Bow -

    i still dont see how the hell david lee is better then david west. i was watching the dallas vs. NO game tonight, and NO was down. thats not the point though. in the game, i saw multiple plays that david lee would have no way of doing. west made some big jumpers that dlee would have no chance on. some of his drives were things that david lee would have no chance. lee would have just passed the ball away. west is a much better player.

    Reply to this comment.
  7. Avatar Ray -

    NO won because cp3 is a damn good point guard. Im so impressed everytime i see him play. Could you imagine if he were here……….wow. I really cant stand Scott Skiles. He would be a PR nightmare here. He doesnt instill hope in his players and puts them down in the media and we dont need anyone like that here.

    Reply to this comment.
  8. Avatar americanbear -

    It is unfortunate there is no candidate that is exciting the knowledgeable fan base. There is no Joe Girardi out there for the Knicks. I think Z outlined our best hope above, we need to admit we’re rebuilding and then either Jax steps it up and proves he belongs, or we get someone else in 2010.

    I don’t want JVG back and don’t want Skiles making things all shitty. I don’t really understand why, but I’ve always like Herb, however lets face it, he’s been a constant part of 7 miserable losing seasons. It’s time he hit the road too. Let’s try to pry Thibby away from Boston as top assitant. As for Patrick… will he add much if anything except feel-good ovations at home games? Does Dwight Howard give Patrick credit for elevating his game?

    I’m disappointed Isiah stays on, even for the draft. He discriminates againts non-US players and therefore has tunnel vision when evaluating talent. NYC is perhaps the most cosmopolitan city in the world, and basketball is easily the 2nd most popular sport in the world. It would be nice if the Knicks got with the program, or at least didn’t shy away from non-US players.

    Reply to this comment.
  9. Avatar Frank -

    I want no part of mark jackson as coach. As far as I know he doesn’t even have ASSISTANT coaching experience. And I am not a fan of his commentating so he has done nothing to show me he really understands what is going on out there. I’ll be on record again saying Thibodeau is my choice.

    Reply to this comment.
  10. Avatar Frank -

    BTW we don’t even need to pry Thibodeau away - I think he is on a 1 year contract

    Reply to this comment.
  11. Avatar W.C. -

    >BTW we don’t even need to pry Thibodeau away - I think he is on a 1 year contract<

    That’s what I read also.

    The problem is that Boston figures to go deep into the playoffs and we are going to start interviewing candidates this week. I believe he has to ask for special permission to interview now.

    I know nothing about him, but he’s seems to have Boston playing “great” defense. So maybe he can take us from being terrible to being adequate. That plus simply removing Isiah and having a more fit and prepared team should be worth 10 games.

    He’s my top choice because he has some experience and a specialty in an area where we are weak. However, I would not be disappointed in Jackson. We aren’t going to win anything in the next 2 years anyway. So he’ll get some on the job training and Walsh will get to evaluate him before the tean becomes a serious contender. If he doesn’t work out, we can worry about that in 2010.

    Reply to this comment.
  12. Avatar mason -

    “re: Thibodeau is responsible for Boston’s ‘great’ defense”

    …does anyone else think this is a joke?
    If you have Garnett in the middle your defense is going to be pretty good, isnt it?

    Reply to this comment.
  13. Avatar jon abbey -

    “I want no part of mark jackson as coach. As far as I know he doesn’t even have ASSISTANT coaching experience. And I am not a fan of his commentating so he has done nothing to show me he really understands what is going on out there.”

    I felt somewhat like this until yesterday, but hearing Rick Carlisle do a game for the first time (who I think is a very good coach) made me feel better about this aspect, since he was an awful commentator.

    Reply to this comment.
  14. Avatar Ted Nelson -

    “so he has done nothing to show me he really understands what is going on out there.”

    I’m not sure how I feel about Mark Jackson, like everyone else I certainly have some reservations about hiring a coach with zero experience. However, Mark Jackson is second on the all-time career assists learderboard: he knows a thing or two about what’s going on out there.

    “If you have Garnett in the middle your defense is going to be pretty good, isnt it?”

    Are you required to make average players good to be considered a good coach? Phil Jackson has had the best players, but he’s still considered a great coach.

    Reply to this comment.
  15. Avatar Z-man -

    Doc Rivers is an excellent example of this, Ted, he bombed in Orlando but now that he has great players he’s a genius.

    Doc has a couple of qualities that I like in a NBA coach. He was a player that got the most out of limited talent by understanding his role and the role of coaching and chemistry, came in shape and ready to play every night and gave it his all. Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, Scott Skiles, Nate McMillan, Avery Johnson, Rick Carlisle, Eddie Jordan, Byron Scott all fit in to that category to some degree. Not that these are all great coaches, but even the great Phil Jackson had to spend some time coaching in the CBA.

    Why should Mark Jackson be handed a job as important as this one without any track record whatsoever? As I said, he was often out of shape which magnified the issues with him not being fast to begin with. He also hot-dogged on the offensive end it more than any of the above while being a major defensive liability throughout his career. Let him cut his teeth somewhere else.

    Not that it matters that much, anyway, so long as we have this gel-proof mix of players.

    Reply to this comment.
  16. Avatar tdm -

    Getting a defensive minded coach, like Thibodeau, is not going to turn the knicks into a defensive team. The knicks roster is filled with players that have no interest in playing help D. Hiring Thibodeau with expectations that he’d do for the knicks what he did for Boston, would be a cruel joke.

    The knicks need to get control of their cap situation, purge the team of ‘me-first’ mentality players, and focus on drafting defensive players. That said, there’s no reason not to take a chance on a guy like jax

    Reply to this comment.
  17. Avatar caleb -

    Re; lee vs. West, today is a bizarre time to make that comment. after all the discussion lately, I was watching west pretty closely, and had the exact opposite reaction. Now, one game is just one game - take it for what it’s worth - but west only had six boards, in a game where dallas’ offensive rebounding kept them in the game until the 4th. As far as defense, it’s hard to judge but it didn’t look like he did much to slow down brandon bass or nowitzki.

    On offense, west did have a couple of nice drives that are not in david lee’s repertoire, bu he followed up one of them with a couple of long (missed) jumpers that are a textbook example of why you don’t want your power forward generating his offense 18 or 20 feet from the basket.

    He also threw a stupid shot at nowitzki with about 2 minutes left that he’s lucky didn’t lead to a tech, to let dallas back in the game.

    All in all, NO won, not suprisingly, bc of paul and also chandler. Of all the role players on the court, I’d say brandon bass looked most imprewsive (though peja was feeling it, too).

    Let’s see what happens the next few games…. Fun series, watching those pgs go at it.

    Speaking of which… Kidd looked fine, but do you think dallas missed having devin harris to dog paul, or diop to clog up the middle when he was simply abusing them in the paint during the 3rd quarter? Even without throwing in 2 1st rounders that trade would have been a serious mistake.

    Reply to this comment.
  18. Avatar caleb -

    Jax might be fine, but thibodeau is a lot more promising. Would you rather have garnett (or rondo) or thibodeau? Of course the player is more impt - but don’t forget, minny had garnett for 12 years and never had a d like this. TT has a long track record - like to see what he can do.

    From that chris sheridan article, I also like the (not happening) idea if dave blatt… Or iavaroni, if memphis fires him. If you’re taking a risk (and we should), go for someone who’s done some coaching.

    A lot of the names bounced around are proven mediocrities - what did scott skiles ever accomplish - and I don’t want the two exceptions -
    carlisle or van gundy. For one thing, tightly wound coaches have a short shelf life, and you don’t want to burn two years on a team like this. Can you imagine JVG’s response to a team losing 50 games?

    But also - the way the league is going, smaller and quicker, no hand-checking, favors less controlling coaches. The jacksons, adelmans and mcmillans of the world. You can tell the teams are extremely well-drilled, but the cach isn’t standing there calling every play. They’ve prepared the team well enough to handle things on their own.

    Reply to this comment.
  19. Avatar W.C. -

    >>re: Thibodeau is responsible for Boston’s ‘great’ defense”

    …does anyone else think this is a joke?
    If you have Garnett in the middle your defense is going to be pretty good, isnt it?<<

    Obviously I don’t.

    Having players with the talent to play good defense will automatically translate into a better defense than having players that don’t. So having Garnett is a huge part of Boston’s success. But Boston is playing great team defense and just having one great or several good defensive players does not translate into great team defense. Part of it is coaching.

    Reply to this comment.
  20. Avatar cwod -

    “what did scott skiles ever accomplish”

    The Bulls were ranked second, sixth, and first in defensive efficiency with him in 04-05, 05-06, and 06-07. I’d take that. Who knows what they would have accomplished if Paxson had pulled the trigger on one of the numerous rumored deals.

    Reply to this comment.
  21. Avatar W.C. -

    The idea that a good defensive coach wouldn’t help the Knicks is preposterous. We aren’t talking about turning Curry, Randolph, and Crawford into a 1st team defensive group. We are talking about taking perhaps the worst defensive team in the league and making them reasonably competent with proper motivation, better fitness and by teaching them things they obviously weren’t taught by Isiah.

    Of course we need to get better players. But defense wins championships. So why not start with a coach that is slowly getting recognized as an excellent defensive coach regardless of some of the players we have now.

    Reply to this comment.
  22. Avatar Brian Cronin -

    Yeah, Van Gundy taught Glen Rice to play some defense, so I’m with you there, WC

    Reply to this comment.
  23. Avatar W.C. -

    Defense is partly talent, partly motivation, and partly knowledge.

    A coach can’t transform a player’s talent, but he can get him more fit, get him more motivated, get him thinking about defense (or bench him), and teach how to work with others inside a system. We aren’t going to transform these Knicks into the Celtics or Pistons, but there’s no reason we can’t become competent instead of a laughing stock while we rebuild. In addition, as we get better defensive players in the rebuilding process, we might as well have a coach that is geared towards defense because that’s what wins championships. All great shooters and offense oriented teams have bad nights. Defense is much more consistent and can win games for you when you are little off.

    Reply to this comment.
  24. Avatar Jacob -

    Completely off-topic, but a must anyway…

    I just stumbled upon this scout’s review of Zach Randolph, aged 19. You HAVE to read this, it is hilarious.

    http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/zachrandolph.htm

    Reply to this comment.
  25. Avatar Ray -

    who did that Z-bo review , an 8 year old?

    Reply to this comment.
  26. Avatar Frank -

    So I don’t remember who was saying that David Lee is as good or better than Pau Gasol (I’m assuming it was probably Owen), but I believe Gasol put that to rest today. What, 36 points, 16 rebounds, 8 assts, 3 blocks, 14-20 from the field, 8-8 from the line. I don’t believe David Lee will ever have that kind of impact on a game, unfortunately.

    Reply to this comment.
  27. Avatar jon abbey -

    but, but, but, but DAVID LEE! :)

    Reply to this comment.
  28. Avatar Ken "The Animal" Bannister -

    David Lee this year v. Sacramento:

    25 pts 16 rbs 8-12 from the field, 8-10 from the line, 2 steals

    Give Lee another 8 shots in the game and he could easily approach Gasol’s line from today’s game. Yes, Gasol (right now) is the better player, but he’s also playing w/Bryant, Odom, etc. both of whom are far superior to anyone on teh Knicks’ roster

    Reply to this comment.
  29. Avatar T-MArt -

    “Supreme intelligence and creativity… Very strong physically and mentally… Soft hands.. Leadership qualities..”

    LOL

    Reply to this comment.
  30. Avatar Owen -

    Gasol has a Win Score of 28 today. that’s a pretty extraordinary game, and better in fact than anything Lee has had in his career.

    Gasol is a great player, there isn’t much question about it. His numbers over his career are slightly better than what Lee offered this year. My point would just be that who you play with matters a great deal to how you are perceived. Play on a great team that has a lot of success and you are going to look a hell of a lot better than you would on a cellar dweller.

    Reply to this comment.
  31. Avatar W.C. -

    There are some players in the NBA that score a lot because they are very good at creating for themselves. Unfortunately many of them are not very good shooters. They just create boatloads of shots for themselves, miss a lot, but score a lot of points anyway because of the sheer number of opportunities.

    There are also many players in the NBA that hit a high percentage of their shots, but can’t create for themselves. They mostly make easy shots when they get an offensive rebound, get loose on a breakaway, or have a set play designed for them etc….

    Lee in the latter category.

    You can’t just say “If Lee took more shots he would score more”. The problem is that if you gave Lee the ball more often he wouldn’t be open or wouldn’t get open by himself and he’d have to pass it anyway. Sure he could take some extra bad shots and up his PPG, but it would take away from his overall effectiveness.

    There are multiple factors you have to look at when evaluating players offensively.

    How well does he shoot and how well does he create are two of them. They inter-relate.

    Great players can do both to a high degree or are so darn great at one (and adequate at the other) that they are always a threat.

    That’s one difference between Randolph and Lee.

    I concede that Randolph takes a lot of bad shots, but he also creates for himself better than Lee. If you gave Lee the ball as often as Zach and told him to try to score 20 PPG, he’d wind up with a worse FG% than Zach. That’s partly because Zach shoots better from the outside, but it’s also partly because Zach is better at creating shots for himself. He has a level of talent that Lee does not have yet.

    Now before you all start bashing me for complimenting Zach and pointing out Lee’s limitations, I realize there are many aspects to a players game. Lee does some things better than Zach and Zach has some pretty bad flaws. I am pointing out one specific attribute of both in which Zach is better but gets no credit for.

    People tend to just look at FG% or adjusted types of FG% and not the player’s creative ability.

    Reply to this comment.
  32. Avatar W.C. -

    There is no comparison between Lee and Gasol.

    Anyone that thinks they are in the same league is blinded by incomplete or misleading stats. Gasol is an all-star caliber player and Lee is barely a starter (but with some promise of getting better). When the lakers signed Gasol, Kobe Bryant must have gone wild. If you told him the Lakers signed David Lee he would have rolled over and went back to bed.

    I love David Lee. But lets be real here. We love him because he’s just about the only Knick that works hard on his game, plays hard every night, is not a disruptive personality etc…. We love his attitude and he has some game.

    Reply to this comment.
  33. Avatar Frank -

    You Lee guys are just amazing. This guy almost puts up a triple double in the playoffs, leads his team in scoring, rebounding, assists, and blocks, and you are still clinging on to the idea that Lee could ever have this kind of impact.

    Where Lee pales in comparison to Gasol is that Gasol can do so many things well - he can score in the post, he can obviously find open spaces near the rim like he did today, he can shoot jumpers (45.3% on jumpers according to 82games), he plays good man defense, he blocks shots, he is an excellent passer. Lee is an extremely limited player, and despite the fact that he is smart and plays to his strengths (rebounding, putbacks), he still has many weaknesses — ie. not a strong defender, not a good shot blocker, not a good passer, and not a good shot creator.

    There is value to having players that can do EVERYTHING well - I love Lamar Odom in that he can handle, create, score, defend, rebound, etc. etc. If you watch him game in and game out, he does so many valuable things that do not show up in any stat sheet, and even though his PER is only 16, he is definitely one of the most valuable Lakers.

    Reply to this comment.
  34. Avatar Owen -

    W.C. - I don’t really care what Kobe thinks. Kobe thought it would be a great idea to trade Andrew Bynum for Jason Kidd, which shows what kind of player evaluator he is.

    Take a look at the numbers yourself,

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=leeda02&y1=2008&p2=gasolpa01&y2=2008

    I think you will see that Gasol scores more, but much less efficiently than Lee (although still quite efficiently.) Lee is a much better rebounder, especially on the offensive boards. Gasol blocks more shots and averages 1.5 more assists per 48, and commits fewer fouls. He also has a much higher usage rate. Lee commits fewer turnovers, and has an edge in steals.

    Lee only has a sample of three years also, so his rookie numbers are dragging his averages down. Gasol is in his absolute prime. And their numbers are very comparable.

    Put Lee next to a player like Kobe and I think people’s perceptions of him would change dramatically. Hopefully that will happen sooner rather than later….

    Reply to this comment.
  35. Avatar caleb -

    I guess I’m obliged to jump in - I would comfortably rank Gasol ahead of Lee right now, but this:

    “he [Gasol] plays good man defense, he blocks shots, he is an excellent passer. Lee is an extremely limited player…”

    … is ridiculous. I don’t see how anyone could consider Gasol a good defender (or any better than Lee, at least) and Lee is a vastly better rebounder. Gasol’s advantage, albeit a big one, is strictly in the scoring department.

    And even then — as I pointed out in an earlier post — I’m very confident that Lee could comfortably score 20 ppg, given the opportunities of a David West or Zach Randolph. I’ll recap:

    As we know, Lee hardly ever has a play run for him. Despite that, he has an average usage rate — handling and shooting as much as the average NBA player. So, in the alternate universe where David Lee is the go-to guy, he still gets all those opportunities, and covnerts at his usual high rate. If he increased his usage by 70 percent — but converted those additional “go-to” plays only at the abysmal rate of Jared Jeffries — he would STILL be a more efficient overall scorer than West or Randolph. And, he’d have a 20+ scoring average.

    Now, I don’t think this would be the best use of his talents. But I don’t think he’d be anywhere near as bad as Jeffries on those extra shots… so I consider this a conservative estimate.

    It’s not that strange a thought. Lee gets to the line a higher percentage of his posessions than Gasol does, and converts 80 percent of his FTs. Gasol hits 45% of his jumpers; Lee hits 40%. DL doesn’t have the same post game, of course… or ballhandling ability… but factor in the rest of their games, and it’s not like they come from different planets.

    “Lee is barely a starter.”

    Who’s fault is this?

    (When I compared all 23 players with usage rates in his range (13.9 - 14.9), Lee was the 2nd most efficient).

    Reply to this comment.
  36. Avatar oboogie -

    gasol can create his own shot. lee cannot. nuff said…

    Reply to this comment.
  37. Avatar caleb -

    “gasol can create his own shot.”

    Not when Kobe’s not around… his previous playoff W-L was 0-12.

    Reply to this comment.
  38. Avatar Owen -

    Carmelo Anthony and Allen Iverson are pretty great at creating their own shot and were first team Western Conference All-stars. And they play next to one of the best rebounders and defenders in the game. And they barely made it into the playoffs, and probably will be out of them in relatively short order.

    Meanwhile Andre Miller just led the Sixers to a win against the Pistons.

    I hope Gasol blows off the doors this playoff season. He has been a wonderful player, both for his teams and his country. He has had the great good fortune to land on one of the best teams in the NBA in his absolute prime, escaping one of the worst situations in the NBA. I hope he takes advantage. And I also hope David Lee gets a similar chance to play on a team full of talented players.

    Reply to this comment.
  39. Avatar Z -

    “You Lee guys are just amazing. This guy almost puts up a triple double in the playoffs, leads his team in scoring, rebounding, assists, and blocks, and you are still clinging on to the idea that Lee could ever have this kind of impact.”

    Frank– I’m not quite sure it’s fair to criticize these guys when you solicited the response. If you thought Owen et al would respond any other way, I don’t think you would have brought up the comparison at all. Owen’s on record saying he wouldn’t trade Lee for Kobe. One game by Gasol is going to change his world view?

    Some far off day David Lee will get to play a playoff game, and when he does he’ll probably have an impact. If his team loses, it probably won’t be his fault. At that time, Gasol will probably have at least one NBA ring, some gold medals, and maybe a nobel prize to boot.

    All in all, though, Lee is a better asset for the current Knicks. His best days are in front of him, just as the organization’s are. If the Knicks had Gasol, they’d be no better than Memphis.

    Reply to this comment.
  40. Avatar Ted Nelson -

    “I am pointing out one specific attribute of both in which Zach is better but gets no credit for.”

    Does he deserve credit for taking bad shots???? Should I clap everytime Jamal Crawford “creates” a pull up 3 with two hands in his face???

    Basketball is a team game, you don’t have to run isolation plays for your PF from the 3 pt line. A 6-9 270 pound Zach Randolph being able to take the ball at the 3 pt line and blow by his man or hit a jumper is a rare skill, no doubt. He might actually be able to use his skills to help his team win if he began, at least, to recognize that there are 4 other guys out there in the same uniform. Or maybe if he cut down on his smoking to the point where he could open his eyes…

    Pau Gasol is more offensively talented than David Lee (Lee’s a better rebounder and defensively it’s not like either is Hakeem, on the one hand, or Lee Nailon, on the other). Gasol is one of the most offensively talented bigmen in the world. Still, as Owen, Z, and others point out, Memphis was miserable even with such a talented offensive player: being able to “create” your own shot doesn’t mean anything if you’re on a lousy team. Even KG couldn’t rescue the T-Wolves last season.

    Anyway, I’m not really sure what Pau Gasol having a monster game has to do with how good David Lee is. Kobe had a good game once in 2004, so clearly LeBron sucks!!! Not particularly logical.

    Frank,

    I don’t think anyone’s arguing that Lee is a complete player, an All-NBA performer. I also don’t think he’s as limited as you paint him to be. It’s not like Knickerblogger posters are the only ones who like Lee: he’s on the Olympic practice squad (put together by Jerry Colangelo), he won MVP in the sophmore/rookie game, and everyone and their mother acknowledges that he’s the most valuable asset on the Knicks’ roster.
    The guy can do some things, and if you put him in a coherent offense he’d look a lot better.

    He’s not LeBron, but he can be an above average starter. This is all that the “Lee guys” have been arguing: top 10-15 PF would mean above average starter it wouldn’t even mean All-Star. In terms of per game output, I think 15 and 10 is completely reasonable.

    Reply to this comment.
  41. Avatar Frank -

    “Frank– I’m not quite sure it’s fair to criticize these guys when you solicited the response. If you thought Owen et al would respond any other way, I don’t think you would have brought up the comparison at all. Owen’s on record saying he wouldn’t trade Lee for Kobe. One game by Gasol is going to change his world view?”

    fair enough — sorry all, I was just terribly impressed with Gasol yesterday and that Lee comparison from several months ago just stuck in my head. Suffice to say, I do like Lee a whole lot but I just don’t think he is a game-changer like Gasol is. One could argue (meekly) that Gasol deserves some MVP votes considering the Lakers went 22-5 with him on the team despite losing Bynum during essentially that whole stretch.

    And Ted - I can’t believe you invoked Lee Nailon… I had purged that memory from my brain and now it stuck there in my craw.

    Last thought — I was singularly unimpressed (and have been) with Carmelo Anthony — he is a great scorer but every single possession for him as a one-on-one move even with Linas “all Knick fans wish Denver had made that ridiculous trade with me going to NY and Z-Bo going to Denver” Kleiza wide open for 3 multiple times. Boy was he impressive also.

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  42. Avatar W.C. -

    >>>“I am pointing out one specific attribute of both in which Zach is better but gets no credit for.”

    Does he deserve credit for taking bad shots???? Should I clap everytime Jamal Crawford “creates” a pull up 3 with two hands in his face??? <<<<

    Ted,

    I think you are being silly here. ;-)

    I went out of my way to avoid this kind of rebuttal by saying that some creative players take bad shots and specifically pointing to the fact that Zach is one of them.

    However, not all creative offensive players take a lot of bad shots and not every shot that a guy like Randolph creates for himself is a bad shot.

    Again, I am talking about a single skill that Lee does not possess to the same degree as Randolph (and certainly not Gasol). That creative skill (plus Lee’s inferior outside shot and the fact that some bad shots actually go in) are all part of the reason for the difference in their scoring.

    This idea that if you made Lee the “Go To” guy he would score 20 PPG is laughable. Sure he would score 20PPG, but his FG% would fall through the floor. Some of these other players that have slightly lower FG%s are WAAAAY better offensive players than Lee.

    There’s an interrelationhip between FG%, the quality of the shots you take, and the quality of shots you can actually create for yourself.

    Anyone can achieve a high FG% by only taking easy shots. That’s why many horrible offensive centers have high FG%s but a low PPG average. The only shots they can get is put back dunks and they hit a lot of those.

    Anyone can score 20 PPG by chucking up anything.

    However it takes a very high quality player to score 20 PPG and keep his FG% very attractive. Gasol is a player like that.

    Lee’s high FG% is a result of his shot selection, but he couldn’t score much more without hurting his FG% badly because he can’t create more solid shots for himself than he is already creating. It’s a limitation.

    But please don’t take this as a trashing of Lee.

    I am praising guys like Gasol and pointing out that Randolph does have some abilities that Lee does not despite all the negatives.

    Reply to this comment.
  43. Avatar Mike K. (KnickerBlogger) -

    “I concede that Randolph takes a lot of bad shots, but he also creates for himself better than Lee. If you gave Lee the ball as often as Zach and told him to try to score 20 PPG, he’d wind up with a worse FG% than Zach. That’s partly because Zach shoots better from the outside, but it’s also partly because Zach is better at creating shots for himself. He has a level of talent that Lee does not have yet.

    People tend to just look at FG% or adjusted types of FG% and not the player’s creative ability.”

    There’s definitely two schools of thoughts with basketball statisticians. One that thinks there’s value in creating a shot, the other that thinks every shot is sacred. I think I fall in between the two. I believe it’s impossible to have a reasonable offense with 5 David Lees or Renaldo Balkmans (Balkmen?). But then again I also believe no NBA coach in their right mind would put a team on the floor like that. You need to have one or more players on the floor that can consistently create a shot before the 24 second clock expires.

    However I’m not sure how low you’re allowed to go when grabbing a high volume - low efficiency scorer. Allen Iverson (45.3% career eFG) has never played a full season on a team that has been in the top 10 in offensive efficiency. And eFG% is the most important factor in regards to a team’s offense.

    It’s hard to quantify exactly how much value is in a created shot. Look at a player like Ben Wallace. He increased his FGA/36 by 3 in 2004, and his FG% plummeted from 50% to the low 40%s.

    The way I look at it is that you want your team to have a high shooting percentage first. But this depends on the rest of your team. On the Knicks, Randolph is superfluous, we have plenty of players that can create their own shot (Crawford, Marbury, Curry, etc.), so you want to have players that can score efficiently. On a team where there aren’t enough players to create shots (Chicago?) Zach Randolph might be a better fit.

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  44. Avatar caleb -

    I don’t take any of your posts as a trashing of Lee, but I still don’t understand the argument, as summed up here:

    “This idea that if you made Lee the “Go To” guy he would score 20 PPG is laughable. Sure he would score 20PPG, but his FG% would fall through the floor… Lee’s high FG% is a result of his shot selection, but he couldn’t score much more without hurting his FG% badly.”

    I laid out a pretty thorough explanation why I don’t think this is true. If you think I’m making bad assumptions — what are they?

    His FG% isn’t just a hair better than Randolph, for example, it’s in another league altogether.
    And it’s not like DL is Ben Wallace or Reggie Evans, totally uninvolved in the offense… per minute, he scores as much Lamar Odom or Jason Maxiell, is above average in FTAs and FTMs… I mean, whatever his existing limitations, even in his limited role he’s not a non-scorer.

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  45. Avatar caleb -

    As context, Lee’s lifetime TS% is *10* points higher than Zach Randolph… obviously it would go down if he took more shots, but it could fall a loooong ways and still be better than Randolph.

    Reply to this comment.
  46. Avatar caleb -

    on another topic - can we all enjoy a tall glass of Schadenfreude? This sums it up pretty well…

    http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-32-70/Who-is-Going-to-Fix-the-Culture-of-the-Chicago-Bulls-.html

    Reply to this comment.
  47. Avatar jon abbey -

    big deal, they’re still infinitely better positioned than us going forward, as is every other team in the league.

    Reply to this comment.
  48. Avatar TDM -

    I just read that Skiles has verbally agreed to coach the Bucks. Also, JVG endorsed Jax as a coaching candidate. Its looking more and more like he’s the guy like it or not.

    Reply to this comment.
  49. Avatar caleb -

    I dunno Jon, in a minute they’ll be pretty well capped out, with big money tied up in Deng, Hinrich, Nocioni, Larry Hughes and Gordon (or whatever they get for him)… doesn’t look like the core of a winner to me!

    They get some cap relief in a year, but those Hinrich and Nocioni deals run through infinity.

    Their big advantage in the optimism department is Noah and Thomas — but then you hear they want to trade Tyrus Thomas, lol. And we have the better draft pick…. and probably a better GM, too.

    So I don’t know that Chicago is really in much better shape… not that that’s saying much!

    Reply to this comment.
  50. Avatar T-Mart -

    “Lee is an extremely limited player… not a good passer”

    Im surprised no one keyed in on this bit already, but Frank, I’d have to respond with an emphatic marv disagreement with this one, David Lee is a good passer.

    Reply to this comment.
  51. Avatar jon abbey -

    I don’t know what’s really wrong in Chicago, but I do know that that same team could easily have been in the Finals last year if they’d gotten Cleveland’s cakewalk draw (which they had until losing to NJ in game 82).

    Reply to this comment.
  52. Avatar Ted Nelson -

    “Anyone can achieve a high FG% by only taking easy shots.”

    This is not true. If it were true than every back-up bigman in the NBA would shoot 60% (especially those on good offensive teams). They don’t. Lee had the 17th best TS% in the league and 20th best eFG% in the league this season.

    eFG%
    http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2008/jh_ALL_eFG.htm
    TS%
    http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2008/jh_ALL_TSP.htm

    After looking at these stats, there is little basis for your claim of a tradeoff between scoring volume and scoring efficiency. Some players (Mikki Moore, Kendrick Perkins, Erick Dampier) with higher TS% than Lee do so while scoring under 12 pts/40, while others (Amare, Kevin Martin, Manu, Dwight Howard, Chauncey Billups, Pau) are scoring over 20 pts/40. Furthermore, only one of the top 13 in the NBA in pts/40 had a TS% below 55 (Wade)… Lee and Curry were the only Knicks to eclipse that mark this season.

    “Anyone can score 20 PPG by chucking up anything.”

    Good point. I give you Jamal Crawford.

    “Lee’s high FG% is a result of his shot selection, but he couldn’t score much more without hurting his FG% badly because he can’t create more solid shots for himself than he is already creating. It’s a limitation.”

    His high FG% is certainly a result of his shot selection: every players FG% is a result of his shot selection. However, it’s hard to say how he’d do with more shots.
    Right now he scores 15 pts/40 with no plays run for him on a weak offensive team. If his overall game can warrant 40 mpg, there’s no reason to think he won’t score 15 ppg without “creating” any more shots. If he develops some confidence as a scorer, plays on a better offensive team, and/or plays with a playmaker 17 pts/40 (1 more made basket) or so seems completely reasonable.

    As Caleb says, there’s no reason to talk about David Lee as if he’s Ben Wallace or something. He has a jumper that I don’t think is much worse than Randolph’s he just doesn’t force bad shots. He doesn’t turn the ball over much, and he gets to the line. This is why I brought up the rookie/sophmore game. Obvoiusly little to no defense is played, but alongside the best young players in the league David Lee has the offensive skills to stand out.
    DAVID LEE IS NOT AN OFFENSIVE LIABILITY. I don’t understand where this notion comes from.

    “I am praising guys like Gasol and pointing out that Randolph does have some abilities that Lee does not despite all the negatives.”

    Praise Gasol all you want. I agree that he’s a better offensive player than Lee.
    Randolph has tons of abilities, he just doesn’t use them for the Knicks because he’s fat and/or lazy and/or dumb and/or an asshole and/or too stoned to open his eyes. (I would choose “and” on all of the above.) The ability to create your own shot is completely worthless if all you create is bad shots.

    Still, I maintain that the offense should create more shots than the individual players. If you’re constantly being forced to “create” shots with 2 seconds on the clock you’re probably getting manhandled by the opponent’s D. The teams that win are the ones who run cohesive offenses that gets guys the ball in a position where they can score.

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  53. Avatar Ted Nelson -

    Basically, I’ll take 5 guys like Lee (adjusted for position) over 1 guy like Randolph.

    Reply to this comment.
  54. Avatar Sly Williams -

    I agree with David Crockett that the COY awarding has been poor, but I feel the same way about the MVP awards. The COY awards seem much worse than MVP awarding because there are more than 5 times as many candidates. Three years is a bigger sample size, but leaves ineligible coaches like Larrys Bird (retires) and Brown (quits often).
    The 3 year limit would reveal the underrated coaches like Byron Scott and maybe even Mike Woodson.

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  55. Avatar caleb -

    Sly, why do you think Mike Woodson is underrated?

    Reply to this comment.
  56. Avatar Sly Williams -

    “Sly, why do you think Mike Woodson is underrated?”
    I used ‘maybe’ because I am unsure, but I have vastly underrated him before, considering him the worst coach in the history of the game. He has improved the team’s performance every season. Wins by year: 13; 26; 30; 37. So now I am pretty sure I underrated him. More to the point, he looks better when evaluating many years rather than 1 single season.

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  57. Avatar Z -

    I believe it’s impossible to have a reasonable offense with 5 David Lees or Renaldo Balkmans (Balkmen?). But then again I also believe no NBA coach in their right mind would put a team on the floor like that.

    Whether Isiah has a “right mind” is debatable, but I’m sure I saw this lineup at some point:

    C: Jeffries
    PF: Lee
    SF: Balkman
    SG: Jones
    PG: Collins

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  58. Avatar Frank -

    Ted - I’ll agree with you that Lee is not a liability but he is not a strength in the same way that Gasol and other guys are, who can at times be the centerpiece of an offense, either by creating their own offense within the team dynamic or by creating offense for others (ie. Gasol’s good passing ability from the high post within the triangle). Lee may be an adequate passer but no opposing coach ever worries when David Lee has the ball in his hands 10 feet from the basket. And that is the main “problem” if you will with Lee — he is great when he is within 3 feet, but as soon as he gets the ball farther than from the rim, he represents no respectable threat for either jumper, drive, or post-up, which allows the other team’s defense either time to recover or to hedge their coverage to account for the Bricks other “threats”. In my view, offense is critically reliant on proper spacing and making the defense respect the perimeters enough that it opens up some space in the middle for post players to play more 1-on-1 (either making a high percentage short range post move or making a pass for a high percentage shot) rather than 1-on-2 or 3. So the fewer players you have that can force the spacing you want, the worse the offense will be. If you can force the opposing 4 to respect you 16 feet out, then that is one less person that can defend Curry in the post. And for all Curry’s weaknesses, I think we can all agree he can score 1-on-1 in the post with high efficiency. Zach was supposed to provide that threat from 16 feet but obviously that didn’t work out.

    So…

    All I want from Lee is a respectable 16-18 foot jumper that he can hit with high regularity when essentially uncovered– he showed a lot of improvement in both execution and confidence in this shot as the season went on and I have high hopes that he’ll continue to improve. I DON’T need Lee to become Gasol or Chris Webber (Sacramento-vintage) in the high post (although that would be nice). I’ve said before that I think a reasonable ceiling to expect for Lee is for him to become a poor-middle class man’s Carlos Boozer (monster on boards, great finisher around the basket, adequate defender, and a threat out to 18-20 feet) and I think that remains a reachable goal for him.

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  59. Avatar caleb -

    It’s worth pointing out that both Curry and Randolph have been better, not worse, with Lee on the floor - whatever that does to the spacing.

    You can find all the 2-man data at 82games.

    It’s pretty interesting - virtually impossible to find any 2-man combo in the whole league, where one player makes more than a miniscule impact on another player’s efficiency. In other words, despite what we hear all the time - so much we’ve taken it for granted our whole lives as basketball fans — there’s very little evidence of anyone making their teammates better, or worse.

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  60. Avatar Frank -

    “It’s pretty interesting - virtually impossible to find any 2-man combo in the whole league, where one player makes more than a miniscule impact on another player’s efficiency. In other words, despite what we hear all the time - so much we’ve taken it for granted our whole lives as basketball fans — there’s very little evidence of anyone making their teammates better, or worse.”

    If we apply common sense, all this tells us is that we don’t know what evidence to look for or how to look for it, not that no evidence exists. And as always, in a 5 player/team sport, a two player interaction is probably meaningless.

    Re: the spacing, all you have to do is imagine 10 players within 5 feet of the hoop and trying to score from within that 5 foot radius. It would obviously be harder. While that is an extreme example, it is illustrative of spacing. (This is not rocket science, sorry for even spelling it out on this board).

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  61. Avatar caleb -

    p.s. It sounds like I’m contradicting myself — and it’s true, there’s not a HUGE difference in Curry or Randolph’s #s, paired with Lee. But there’s no sign that his supposed inability to shoot hurts the spacing, or anyone’s game. Actually, the biggest example I’ve ever run across of one player helping another, was the boost that Lee gave to Curry’s stats last year…

    http://82games.com/0708/0708NYKP.HTM

    2007-2008:
    Curry totals (per 40 min):
    20.4 points, .546 shooting, 0.8 assists, 3.3 TO

    Curry w/Lee on court:
    20.6 points, .570 shooting, 0.5 assists, 3.7 TO

    Curry w/Randolph on court:
    20.0 points, .532 shooting, 1.1 assists, 3.1 TO

    ==

    Randolph totals:
    21.7 points, .459 shooting, 2.5 assists, 3.3 TO

    Randolph w/Lee on court:
    22.6 points, .443 shooting, 2.1 assists, 2.9 TO

    Randolph w/Curry on court;
    19.0 pooints, .464 shooting, 3.1 assists, 4.1 TO

    ==

    2006-2007:
    Curry total:
    22.1 points, .576 shooting, 1.0 assists, 4.1 TO

    Curry w/Lee on court:
    25.1 points, .627 shooting, 0.9 assists, 4.1 TO

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  62. Avatar caleb -

    “If we apply common sense, all this tells us is that we don’t know what evidence to look for or how to look for it, not that no evidence exists…

    Re: the spacing, all you have to do is imagine 10 players within 5 feet of the hoop and trying to score from within that 5 foot radius. It would obviously be harder. While that is an extreme example, it is illustrative of spacing. (This is not rocket science, sorry for even spelling it out on this board).”

    If you apply common sense, you’ll understa